The Pro Wrestling/Sports Entertainment Thread

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:14)

Hammer

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
17,021
Reaction score
3,726
dr death vs misawa and danielson vs end jump out as intriguing, from what i havent seen/think i havent seen. theres some obvious ones in there that everyone has seen, but i wont mind going back in time.
 

Formerly Known

2016 & 2017 Mach Draft Contest Winner
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
22,727
Reaction score
3,322
The End/Bryan thing isn’t what you think, after watching it. It’s definitely interesting, but... ehhh, you’ll see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Mach

The Straw That Stirs The Drink
Joined
May 21, 2014
Messages
12,677
Reaction score
3,916
are we talking objectively or subjectively?
 

Mach

The Straw That Stirs The Drink
Joined
May 21, 2014
Messages
12,677
Reaction score
3,916
Objective? Flair, Hogan, Austin, Rock with Cena just missing and Taker in the mix too.

Subjective? Benoit, Flair, HBK, Hart just going from gut. I also love Angle (sorry @Formerly Known ) and Brock's up there too - if he only wrestled more. He had such promise.
 

Scott Hisno

Dreamer. Believer.
Joined
Sep 12, 2015
Messages
10,636
Reaction score
3,023
I suppose you can go with two categories, game-changers who affected the business and then those who inspire yourself or other wrestlers.

I'd imagine Vince McMahon has to be up there with Hulk Hogan as the ones to shape modern wrestling.

McMahon killed the territories.

Hulk Hogan elevated the business twice, in the 80s as the All American and with his now heel turn.

Austin because he was the other side of the hot 90s.

Lou Thesz, because he was wrestling.



Guys who inspired and pushed it forward.

Buddy Roger's, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin.
 

Scott Hisno

Dreamer. Believer.
Joined
Sep 12, 2015
Messages
10,636
Reaction score
3,023
You know who my tag team mount Rushmore would be...

Tekno Team 2000, Disorderly Conduct, The Tolands and The Shane Twins
 

Formerly Known

2016 & 2017 Mach Draft Contest Winner
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
22,727
Reaction score
3,322
Dax Hardwood states his wrestling Mt Rushmore is "4 Bret Harts"

What have you got @Hammer @Formerly Known and @Mach
His opinion, I guess. Bret is kinda lacking in the great match department, though, and is really pushed up by being the best WWF worker basically from 1991-1997, and the only guy having consistent ***+ matches. He drew very little, though, so...I mean...

I guess US guys for drawing/influence it'd be something like Vince-Flair-Hogan-Austin? And workrate you're opening an even bigger can of worms, because that's even more subjective.
 

Scott Hisno

Dreamer. Believer.
Joined
Sep 12, 2015
Messages
10,636
Reaction score
3,023
His opinion, I guess. Bret is kinda lacking in the great match department, though, and is really pushed up by being the best WWF worker basically from 1991-1997, and the only guy having consistent ***+ matches. He drew very little, though, so...I mean...

I guess US guys for drawing/influence it'd be something like Vince-Flair-Hogan-Austin? And workrate you're opening an even bigger can of worms, because that's even more subjective.
In the end we can only go based on our personal opinions.

When you say lacking in the great match department, I will assume 5 star matches, because I think his big matches were great

Wembley vs Bulldog

Double turn vs Austin is a pivotal match in wrestling history and great

He drew more than Diesel?
 

Formerly Known

2016 & 2017 Mach Draft Contest Winner
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
22,727
Reaction score
3,322
Neither of those are 5* matches for me.

And Diesel is never going to even be mentioned for any of these lists unless it's 'best hair', so...
 

Scott Hisno

Dreamer. Believer.
Joined
Sep 12, 2015
Messages
10,636
Reaction score
3,023
Neither of those are 5* matches for me.

And Diesel is never going to even be mentioned for any of these lists unless it's 'best hair', so...
Great doesnt have to be 5 stars.

What good is a 5 or 6 star match if no one cares about them.
 

slyder

Active member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
40
Reaction score
7
His opinion, I guess. Bret is kinda lacking in the great match department, though, and is really pushed up by being the best WWF worker basically from 1991-1997, and the only guy having consistent ***+ matches. He drew very little, though, so...I mean...

I guess US guys for drawing/influence it'd be something like Vince-Flair-Hogan-Austin? And workrate you're opening an even bigger can of worms, because that's even more subjective.
Bret Hart was a catalyst in 2 of the biggest stories that led to WWE winning the Monday Night Wars. The Double Turn effectively began the Stone Cold Era and the Montreal Screw Job launched the Mr. McMahon character to the upper echelons of villians in business history. There's not many people not named Hogan (NWO and Andre) that can claim to have 2 seminal moments in their careers. It's a shame WCW had no idea how to use Bret and some of the matches you could have built to after Sting/Hogan blowoff.
 

Formerly Known

2016 & 2017 Mach Draft Contest Winner
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
22,727
Reaction score
3,322
Great doesnt have to be 5 stars.

What good is a 5 or 6 star match if no one cares about them.
I suppose this is a good spot to (re)explain my star ratings.

***** - Greatest match of all time territory. Perfect match.
****3/4 - Just shy of perfect, usually without a finish or a major nitpick that keeps it from fully getting there.
****1/2 - Match of the decade contender.
****1/4 - Just a little something extra to put it above a great match.
**** - Great match. Anything over 30 minutes that doesn't feel long, but doesn't have anything special tends to fall here.
***1/2 - Very good. Standard spotfests (like the TLC tags) tend to fall here, as well, because of the lack of selling. Most sprints end up here instead of the quarter star higher.
*** - Good match.
**1/2 - Average match.
** - Okay
* - Fine, but not good.
DUD - Bad with nothing to point to as a match worth watching.

Also... I remove quarter stars for...ref bumps/involvement that takes my attention off the match, ignoring the rules of a match to provide 'drama' (like using a chair/table without a no DQ stipulation. Non-focused rest holds that go on longer than needed (a leg lock when the story is a knee injury is *not* a rest hold to me).

I'll look at Bret here in a moment to follow this up with the 'great match' theory in effect.
 

Formerly Known

2016 & 2017 Mach Draft Contest Winner
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
22,727
Reaction score
3,322
Bret Hart
***** - vs. Steve Austin (Sur Ser 1996)
****3/4 - vs. Steve Austin (Wrestlemania 1997)
****1/2- vs. Owen Hart (Wrestlemania 1994)
****1/4 - vs. The Undertaker (One Night Only 1997)
****1/4 - vs. Kevin Nash (Sur Ser 1995)
****1/4 - w/Davey Boy Smith vs. Bob Backland & Owen Hart (Action Zone 1995)
****1/4 - w/Hart Foundation vs. Team USA (Canadian Stampede 1997)
**** - vs. Chris Benoit (Nitro 1999)
**** - vs. Curt Hennig (King of the Ring 1993)

Last time I had the Wembley match at ***1/2, and I might up it, since I used to only rate bell to bell, or I was just in a terrible mood when I watched it last, either or. I suppose that can be the MOTD for 8-29 to get a good refresh.

So that's my opinion and logic for not putting him in the Top 4 US/Canada workers of all time. WWE tends to push things as classic matches that just don't hold up compared to stuff they have in their own catalog.

I'd safely put him behind Bryan Danielson & Ric Flair, for sure. And maybe you can throw him in an argument with guys like Jerry Lawler, Eddie Guerrero, Nick Bockwinkle, John Cena, Steamboat and Savage. But I learn towards other guys as better workers, in my opinion.

The idea for this process is that it's opinion, though. So...have it.
 

Formerly Known

2016 & 2017 Mach Draft Contest Winner
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
22,727
Reaction score
3,322
Also, for influence...we all neglected to mention a very low hanging fruit...

Bruno Sammartino.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

slyder

Active member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
40
Reaction score
7
Bret Hart
***** - vs. Steve Austin (Sur Ser 1996)
****3/4 - vs. Steve Austin (Wrestlemania 1997)
****1/2- vs. Owen Hart (Wrestlemania 1994)
****1/4 - vs. The Undertaker (One Night Only 1997)
****1/4 - vs. Kevin Nash (Sur Ser 1995)
****1/4 - w/Davey Boy Smith vs. Bob Backland & Owen Hart (Action Zone 1995)
****1/4 - w/Hart Foundation vs. Team USA (Canadian Stampede 1997)
**** - vs. Chris Benoit (Nitro 1999)
**** - vs. Curt Hennig (King of the Ring 1993)

Last time I had the Wembley match at ***1/2, and I might up it, since I used to only rate bell to bell, or I was just in a terrible mood when I watched it last, either or. I suppose that can be the MOTD for 8-29 to get a good refresh.

So that's my opinion and logic for not putting him in the Top 4 US/Canada workers of all time. WWE tends to push things as classic matches that just don't hold up compared to stuff they have in their own catalog.

I'd safely put him behind Bryan Danielson & Ric Flair, for sure. And maybe you can throw him in an argument with guys like Jerry Lawler, Eddie Guerrero, Nick Bockwinkle, John Cena, Steamboat and Savage. But I learn towards other guys as better workers, in my opinion.

The idea for this process is that it's opinion, though. So...have it.
Any match between Bret and Shawn needs mentioned. As much as they hated each other they were as good together as any duo short of Austin/McMahon. The Ironman Match is STILL one of my favorite matches to go back and watch.
 

Formerly Known

2016 & 2017 Mach Draft Contest Winner
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
22,727
Reaction score
3,322
Any match between Bret and Shawn needs mentioned. As much as they hated each other they were as good together as any duo short of Austin/McMahon. The Ironman Match is STILL one of my favorite matches to go back and watch.
Okay, that's fair. Shawn and Bret had 3 WWF PPV non/Rumble meetings. SurSer 1992, Wrestlemania 12 and SurSer 1997. I didn't love any of them, but that's just me. (And I probably like the screwjob match the best.)

I'm glad someone still likes 12, but I just...don't. I find it overly long and meandering because neither guy wanted to job, and the restart was just so unforgivable because they hadn't mentioned 'there has to be a finish' since the contact signing.

If I say, go watch 6-3-94, and you say it's not good wrestling in your opinion, that's perfectly fine, too. I find rating wrestling matches the same as rating movies; The Godfather isn't a movie that everyone loves, but a lot of people do.
 

HollywoodLeo

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
390
Reaction score
150
I suppose this is a good spot to (re)explain my star ratings.

***** - Greatest match of all time territory. Perfect match.
****3/4 - Just shy of perfect, usually without a finish or a major nitpick that keeps it from fully getting there.
****1/2 - Match of the decade contender.
****1/4 - Just a little something extra to put it above a great match.
**** - Great match. Anything over 30 minutes that doesn't feel long, but doesn't have anything special tends to fall here.
***1/2 - Very good. Standard spotfests (like the TLC tags) tend to fall here, as well, because of the lack of selling. Most sprints end up here instead of the quarter star higher.
*** - Good match.
**1/2 - Average match.
** - Okay
* - Fine, but not good.
DUD - Bad with nothing to point to as a match worth watching.

Also... I remove quarter stars for...ref bumps/involvement that takes my attention off the match, ignoring the rules of a match to provide 'drama' (like using a chair/table without a no DQ stipulation. Non-focused rest holds that go on longer than needed (a leg lock when the story is a knee injury is *not* a rest hold to me).

I'll look at Bret here in a moment to follow this up with the 'great match' theory in effect.
I'm not quite sure that answers the question you quoted.

But great explanation nonetheless.
 
Top